{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/v11vd6pc28/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Interview with Julian Van Winkle III, April 20, 2010"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/002/original/1b9c652bf856b30cc9684b8a547e8758.png?1549330641","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":["Julian Van Winkle III (Interviewee)","Thomas Troland (Interviewer)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["2010-04-20 (created)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Identifier"]},"value":{"en":["2010oh059_bik016 (cms record id)","2010OH059 BIK 016 (accession number)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Relation"]},"value":{"en":["Buffalo Trace Oral History Project (BIK003) (is part of)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Format"]},"value":{"en":["video"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["Julian Van Winkle III is from Louisville, Kentucky. He is the grandson of Julian \"Pappy\" Van Winkle, Sr. and the son of Julian Van Winkle, Jr., who founded the Old Rip Van Winkle Company.   In 1977, Julian joined his father at the Old Rip Van Winkle Company and later became owner.  In this interview, Van Winkle explains the history of the Van Winkle family and their involvement in distilling. He describes how his father began Old Rip Van Winkle Company and how the company operates. Van Winkle explains why Van Winkle bourbons can be aged longer than other brands. He also talks about the challenges of running a bourbon company which does not own its own distillery and explains Old Rip Van Winkle's business relationship with the Buffalo Trace Distillery. In addition, Julian discusses his company's brands and discusses their place in the market. He talks about the history of the bourbon industry and the consumer trends currently affecting it. In addition, Van Winkle discusses the future of the company. (summary)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Keyword"]},"value":{"en":["Old Rip Van Winkle Company","Old Rip Van Winkle brand","Alcohol industry.","Genealogy.","Families."]}},{"label":{"en":["Subject"]},"value":{"en":["Old Rip Van Winkle Distillery (local term)","Buffalo Trace Distillery (local term)","Whiskey industry--Kentucky (local term)","Whiskey (local term)","Stitzel-Weller Distillery (local term)","Van Winkle, Julian P. (Julian Pappy), Sr., 1874-1965 (local term)","Distilleries--Kentucky (local term)","Bourbon whiskey (local term)","Branding (Marketing) (local term)","Family-owned business enterprises. (local term)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries.","Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections and Digital Programs, University of Kentucky Libraries."]}},{"label":{"en":["Source Metadata URI"]},"value":{"en":["00048052 (2010oh059_bik016_vanwinkle_ohm.xml)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Duration"]},"value":{"en":["01:11:27"]}}],"summary":{"en":["Julian Van Winkle III is from Louisville, Kentucky. He is the grandson of Julian \"Pappy\" Van Winkle, Sr. and the son of Julian Van Winkle, Jr., who founded the Old Rip Van Winkle Company.   In 1977, Julian joined his father at the Old Rip Van Winkle Company and later became owner.  In this interview, Van Winkle explains the history of the Van Winkle family and their involvement in distilling. He describes how his father began Old Rip Van Winkle Company and how the company operates. Van Winkle explains why Van Winkle bourbons can be aged longer than other brands. He also talks about the challenges of running a bourbon company which does not own its own distillery and explains Old Rip Van Winkle's business relationship with the Buffalo Trace Distillery. In addition, Julian discusses his company's brands and discusses their place in the market. He talks about the history of the bourbon industry and the consumer trends currently affecting it. In addition, Van Winkle discusses the future of the company."]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries.","Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections and Digital Programs, University of Kentucky Libraries."]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/002/original/1b9c652bf856b30cc9684b8a547e8758.png?1549330641","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/000/011/small/open-uri20190204-2161-o7u6z6?1549331327","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - 2010oh059_bik016_vanwinkle_acc003 from Nunn Center for Oral History on Vimeo"]},"duration":4287.0,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/000/011/small/open-uri20190204-2161-o7u6z6?1549331327","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://player.vimeo.com/video/253468491","type":"Video","format":"video/vimeo","duration":4287.0,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["2010oh059_bik016_vanwinkle_ohm.xml [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TROLAND: My name is Tom Troland, and today we are interviewing Julian\nP. Van Winkle, III.  The date is April 20, 2010.  This is part of the\nBuffalo Trace Oral History Project, and we are located here at the\nBuffalo Trace Distillery.  First of all, Julian, thank you very much\nfor taking the time to talk with us.  Let's begin with a very general\nquestion.  Just tell me a little bit about yourself.\n \nVAN WINKLE: Well, born and raised in Louisville, Kentucky, um, and never\nleft town except to go to school.  I went to college and prep school in\nVirginia for several years and, um, came back.  Um, I started working,\nuh, actually at a clothing store when I left college and, uh, didn't\nstart working for my dad until, uh, two or three years after that and,\nuh, married a girl from Louisville and, um, children were all born\nthere.  They've all moved away but now they're moving back so, um, got\na couple of grandkids. And, um, I've been in the whiskey business--I ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=0.0,60.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\njoined my dad in 1977 so it's been a while.\n \nTROLAND: How old were you when you joined your dad in the whiskey\nbusiness?\n \nVAN WINKLE: Uh, let's see.  I would have been, I guess, twenty-\nseven/twenty-eight, and as I mentioned I had no desires really to\nspecifically work with Dad but, um, and that's why I kind of went off\nand worked at a clothing store for a while just to, um, do that.  And,\nuh, it was fun for a while, but I saw that I really wasn't going to\ngo anywhere in the clothing business as far as, uh--they offered me\na promotion, and I said, \"Well, maybe I'll try something else.\" So at\nthat time Dad, um, asked me to work for him, and, um, he had an office-\n-after he had sold the Stitzel-Weller Distillery he had an office and,\num, started this brand of Old Rip Van Winkle at that time.  So that's\nwhat he was selling.\n \nTROLAND: (Van Winkle clears throat) Let's go back a little bit in time.\nObviously you're from a well-known whiskey family, and the ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=60.0,120.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"whiskey\ndynasty, I guess, in your family, began with your grandfather?\n \nVAN WINKLE: Right.\n \nTROLAND: And you remember your grandfather for sure?\n \nVAN WINKLE: Yeah.\n \nTROLAND: So tell me a little bit about your grandfather, maybe your\ngrandmother as well--that generation of your family as you remember\nthem.\n \nVAN WINKLE: Sure.  Well, um, Pappy as he was known, um--(clears throat)-\n-um, he actually passed away in 1965, so I would have been, I guess,\nuh, fifteen or sixteen.  So I didn't know him for a long time, but,\num, my memories really of, of my grandmother and grandfather were going\nto their house and maybe spending the night, obviously spending the\nholidays over there.  Christmas was usually held--at some point you'd\nend up at their house, and, um, uh, lived in the, in the Crescent Hill\narea near Highlands and, uh, had a really nice, uh, house there that\nmy dad actually grew up.  And, uh, they were just great people, you\nknow, typical grandparents, um, good food. Um, uh, ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=120.0,180.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"my grandmother was\na strong woman and kept Pappy reined in pretty well, but he was quite\na character and he, uh, he had a lot of friends in the, in the whiskey\nbusiness, the bourbon business around the world.  And, um, uh, he was\nquite a character and has been described as a character, and, um, uh,\nthat's what he was known for by his, his, uh, peers in the business.\nAnd, um, uh, you know, we would go, um, on a couple of vacations\ntogether.  Uh, I remember going dove hunting with my grandfather and\nfather, um, and, uh, just, you know, vague, some vague memories; not a\nwhole lot of memories like that but, um, just really fond memories of\njust kind of growing up in that house of theirs.\n \nTROLAND: Did your grandfather ever take you to the distillery?\n \nVAN WINKLE: You know, he never did, but I would go on the weekends with\nmy father and sometimes, uh, Pappy would be there in his office.  And,\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=180.0,240.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"um, I would go with my sisters, and we'd hang around the distillery\nand just a great place to kind of grow up.  Um, I just remember as a\nreally small child playing around in the office and scooting around on\nthe chairs on the linoleum floors in the back part of the office and,\num, you know, just being able to run all over the whole place and, uh,\nreally, really neat.  But, uh, Pappy never, I don't really remember\ngoing there with him too much, but he was always around.  (clears\nthroat)\n \nTROLAND: Was he someone that you interacted with a lot in that sense?\nWas he sort of a doting grandfather or was he more, uh, someone who,\nwho had his own business and kept it a little bit to himself?\n \nVAN WINKLE: Um, both.  I mean, he was obviously a professional man and\nhe would, at his--when he was running his distillery, Stitzel-Weller,\nthe Old Fitzgerald distillery, he was the oldest active distiller, so\nhe was serious about, um, his business and, uh, then could, you know,\nturn that off and be a ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=240.0,300.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"great grandfather at the same time when, uh, uh,\nwe'd be together.  So it was a little bit of both.  Um, he, he was, he\nwas a lot of fun to be around.  I just--(clears throat)--I wish, you\nknow, I had been a little older when he was around because I couldn't\nappreciate him quite as much.  I had some cousins and my sisters that\nare older than I am and, um, cousins, um, were a little older, and\nthey, they knew him a little better.  And really I would ask them, you\nknow, after he passed away, I'd have to ask them, \"Well, what was Pappy\nlike in this situation?\" or whatever.  But unfortunately I didn't, I\nwas a little young to really, um, be able to enjoy him as far as, uh,\nyou know, knowing too much about him.\n \nTROLAND: Did you ever hear him tell a story or did some other member of\nyour family ever recount to you a story about him that you remembered\nwell over the years?\n \nVAN WINKLE: He had a lot of stories, and, uh, most of his stories he put\ninto his advertising. Um, uh, he had these third-page, ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=300.0,360.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"um, column ads\nin Time Magazine and Sports Illustrated and, uh, a third of a column\nwith his picture up at the top, and my dad did the same thing after\nPappy passed away.  But, uh, he would, a lot of his old stories that\nhe would know about, he would relate that to selling, selling bourbon.\nUm, I can't really think of too many right off the top of my head, but\nhe was, they were very famous columns and, uh, you know, they really\ndid a good job of, of selling the whole home-town, uh, home-raised\nKentucky boy selling bourbon whiskey.  It really went together well.\n \nTROLAND: Tell me a little bit about, uh, about your dad.  Uh, he was in\nthe whiskey business also.\n \nVAN WINKLE: (clears throat)\n \nTROLAND: Um--\n \nVAN WINKLE: Yeah.\n \nTROLAND: What was his story?\n \nVAN WINKLE: He, um, again born and raised in Louisville, um, went\nto Princeton and after Princeton, um, actually joined the Army so\nthis would have been early forties, and, uh, he was stationed at\nFort ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=360.0,420.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Campbell for a while and, um, eventually went into the service\nand fought in the Pacific.  He was a tank commander over there in,\nuh, 1943/44 and, um, was actually wounded over there in, um, in the\nGuinea/Philippines area, and, um, that didn't put an end to his career\nbut he got a purple heart and silver, silver medal for his valor\nover there.  So he was, he was the consummate Army, Army guy.  He\nwas, um, he brought some of that home sometimes.  He was a very stern\nindividual, and, uh, uh, and I, um, you know, he ran a tight ship at\nhome, too.  And I could always see his--and he did it in business,\ntoo--it was, the Army kind of carried through, uh, through most of his\nlife as far as, uh, the way he, um, treated people and expected people\nto treat him and ran the business and ran the house and so forth.  So\nhe was a, he was a tough guy to work for but, uh, you know, very honest\nand very, you know, ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=420.0,480.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"a good, good man for sure.\n \nTROLAND: Give me just a little bit of background about the family\ndistillery; not detailed history but just, uh, sort of, uh, the\nhighlights that, uh, come to mind.\n \nVAN WINKLE: Well, my pappy, I guess I would start with him.  This is\nwhat we usually talk about when we do bourbon dinners or whatever,\nbut, uh, he started in the business right.  Went to Centre College\nin Danville and, uh, was from Danville as a matter of fact.  His dad,\nhis dad was Secretary of State in Kentucky, and Pappy went to work in\nLouisville, uh, from Centre in, uh, 1873 as a salesman for W.L.  Weller\nand Sons Wholesale Company.  And, uh, the Stitzel Distillery made their\nwhiskey for them, and eventually they merged to form the Stitzel-Weller\nDistillery.  So you had the Weller Wholesale Company--(clears throat)-\n-and the Stitzel Distillery, uh, merging together; um, ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=480.0,540.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"one owning\nthe label and the Stitzels having their own whiskey also.  And then\nProhibition occurred and, um, the Stitzel was one of the few that was\nallowed to operate during Prohibition, and after Prohibition in 1935,\nPappy opened up the modern day Stitzel-Weller Distillery here at, or\nin Louisville, and, uh, opened up Derby Day in 1935.  And, um, he--and\nMr.  Stitzel came along with him and a fellow named Alex Farnsley who\nwas the money operator, and Pappy was the salesman of the, uh, of the\nthree, Mr.  Stitzel being the distiller.  And, uh, they operated the\ndistillery, and, uh, their brands, main brands were Old Fitzgerald\nand W.L.  Weller, and, uh, Dad, after the war, uh, joined Pappy as a\nsalesman first and then worked his way up to vice-president and then\npresident as Pappy got a little older and started to retire.  And, um,\nuh, operated the business and--another brand they had was Rebel Yell\nand Cabin Still were the other two brands they had among the four big\nones, and they ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=540.0,600.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"did a lot of contract bottling for a lot of hotels and\nrestaurants around the country, mostly in the New York/Chicago areas.\n(clears throat) And, um, operated the distillery--Pappy passed away\nin 1965--and Dad continued to operate the distillery until 1972 when\nhe, uh, when he sold it, and that's when he started this Old Rip Van\nWinkle label at that time actually with some whiskey he had produced\nat Stitzel-Weller.  So he, you know, to start a bourbon label you have\nto have product, so he was lucky enough to be able to get some of the\nproduct that he had actually made himself and, uh, that was the first\nwhiskey that he put in his Old Rip Van Winkle bottling.\n \nTROLAND: So the first bottlings of Rip Van Winkle came out when?\n \nVAN WINKLE: Uh, probably '74 or '75.  It took him a couple of years.\nAs I said, he sold the distillery in '72 so it took a couple of years\nto get it going, and, um, I'm still in the same office that he started\nback after he sold the ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=600.0,660.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"distillery. We've still got that same office\nwith my son, but, um, uh, as I say, people want to get in the whiskey\nbusiness but to do that you either have a distillery and start making\nwhiskey and it takes years to obviously get product depending on how\nold you want your whiskey to be, your bourbon to be but, uh, he was\nlucky enough to already have something to put in the bottles.  And it\nwas a fantastic product.  Back then it was a seven-year-old Old Rip Van\nWinkle, but, um, that's how he got started back in the business.\n \nTROLAND: So now at this time when he was getting started back in the\nbusiness after the family distillery had been sold, you were, I guess,\nworking in the clothes industry at that time?\n \nVAN WINKLE: Uh-huh.  Uh-huh.  Yes.  Yeah.  Um, uh, exactly.  I was doing\nsomething else, and, um, he was kind of doing his own thing.  And I\nwas just kind of looking at it on the periphery and just seeing what\nhe was doing, and, um, as I say, I didn't have a great, great interest\nin it, um, but then as he got more into it, um, I could see that, uh,\nyou know, he traveled a ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=660.0,720.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"lot and I knew a lot of the people. He had\nthe same, um, wholesalers that he had at Stitzel-Weller.  So, uh, I\nknew a lot of those people because I had, I actually would do, go on a\ncouple of sales trips with Dad when we had the big distillery and, um,\nyou know, so I knew a lot of the people that worked for him, and, uh,\nsome of them worked for him when they changed to the Old Rip Van Winkle\nlabel and used a lot of the same wholesalers.  So, you know, I knew\nsome of the people in the business and kind of got to be intrigued with\nit, and, uh, you know, it was great to, uh, to join in 1977 when I did.\n \nTROLAND: And so what, what did you do after you first joined the family\nbusiness? What, uh, what types of duties? What types of duties did you\nhave at that time?\n \nVAN WINKLE: Well, since there was actually no distillery with our\nbusiness, uh, Stitzel-Weller did our bottling for us, so my job was\nto say--and at that time, we also were producing a lot of decanters.\nUh, that was a good way to ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=720.0,780.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"sell, sell product rather than just in a\nregular whiskey bottle.  We'd put it in a specialized decanter for,\nsay, um, different universities or, uh, wildlife decanters or whatever;\njust, that was big in the sixties and seventies to a lot of the--all\nof the distilleries, uh, had their own, uh, labels on, on the decanters\nalso because that was a, as I say, a good way to sell their whiskey.\nSo I would, uh, basically get the production, you know, check on the,\num, production of the bottles and the bottling, and we'd go to the\nbottling at Stitzel-Weller.  Um, he had one of those old, um, fellows\nthat worked as the, uh, plant super-, uh, supervisor at Stitzel-Weller.\nHe worked for us now, so he would help us along as far as getting the\nbottling done, making sure it was done right and, um, uh, you know,\ngetting the right whiskey in the bottles and so forth and just kind\nof keeping track of all that and then also, um, actually going out\naround the country--uh, mostly in Kentucky and in Louisville in the\nfirst part--but, um, going ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=780.0,840.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to stores and wholesalers and having sales\nmeetings and, you know, selling the product once we get it bottled.\nSo that was kind of--it was the office work and then you go out and do\nthe, the leg work in the, in the field.  So those were pretty much what\nwe did; just basically learned the business from the ground up.  I knew\nthe, knew the distillation part of it, but, um, you know, the actual\nselling part of it and the, and the bottling of it was something that I\nwas very much involved in.\n \nTROLAND: You mentioned earlier you had gone to college.  Where did you\ngo to school?\n \nVAN WINKLE: Uh, went to Woodbury Forest and then Blue Ridge School which\nwere prep schools in Virginia and then to Randolph Bacon College in\nAshland, Virginia.\n \nTROLAND: When you were going to college or perhaps shortly thereafter,\ndid you have any thought that you might eventually wish to get into the\nwhiskey business or were you really, completely uninterested in that at\nthat time?\n \nVAN WINKLE: ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=840.0,900.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Um, it was always a fascinating business, and I, uh, we\nsure drank a lot of whiskey in college and everybody did.  You know,\nit was, um, you start as a freshman, you start drinking bourbon in, uh,\nyour fraternity house and whatever, but it was always--and people, my\nfriends were always very interested because we would, mostly back then\nwe were drinking Rebel Yell which is, uh, only sold in the South.  And,\num, people were, my friends were always infatuated by the business and\nthe brand and, of course, I was, too, but I think probably--(clears\nthroat)--uh, as I mentioned my dad was a, was a stern individual and\na tough guy to work for, a tough guy to be his son, so maybe I think\nprobably that had something to do with maybe me putting this thing off\nfor a while as far as working for him because, um, um, maybe I just\nwanted a little space for a while before we joined up together.  But\nwhen we did it was fine and, uh, everything worked out great, but, um,\num, that probably had something to do with my delay as far as getting\ninto ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=900.0,960.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"business.\n \nTROLAND: Tell me about your siblings.\n \nVAN WINKLE: I've got two older sisters, and, um, Kitty, uh, Terry\nlives in Coconut Grove, Florida, and they have two girls and four\ngrandchildren now.  Um, she went to school up, uh, near Boston so\nshe married a guy up there.  Um, it's quite, my dad was a staunch\nsoutherner and she married a Yankee, as he described it--as they all\ndescribed him--and he had described himself as that, so we all had a\nlot of fun with that.  And, uh, my older, uh, oldest sister, Sally, um,\nlives in Louisville and, uh, has a couple of sons and, um, still, still\nthere, and, um, uh, they, you know, are not in the business but always\nbeen interested in it and, um, you know, keep track of what I'm doing\nall the time.  And, um, um, that was, uh, you know, it was fun for them\nto also grow up in the whiskey family; it was a great ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=960.0,1020.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"thing.\n \nTROLAND: Can you think of a story about something that happened when you\nwere a kid at home or, uh, involving family that you remember either\nbecause it was funny or because it was influential in your future?\n \nVAN WINKLE: Oh, gosh.  Um, I'm going to say not offhand.  Nothing\ncomes to mind.  (laughs) But I'll work on that.  I'm sure there is and\nsomething would, uh, pop up, but, um, uh, we, one th-, you know, my\ndad, you know, being the president of a, of a nice, big distillery you\nwould think he would be, uh, you know, cognizant of the fact that, uh,\nyoung people should be careful when they take a drink of whiskey--when\nI say young people, I mean college age--and we would, um, we would\nalways have every so often, we'd have friends come home from college\nfor the Derby. And one year we're trying to smuggle in ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=1020.0,1080.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"some whiskey\ninto the infield, and, of course, you can't take any alcohol into the\ninfield, but my father was right there that morning trying to help us\nfigure out how to get some whiskey into the infield.  And, uh, we found\nsome old, empty salad dressing bottles I think my mother had down in\nthe basement that she kept for some reason, um, and filled those up\nwith, uh, whiskey, and we lined our belt with these skinny, uh, empty\nsalad dressing bottles with some whiskey, um, bourbon, good bourbon to\ntake into the infield.  So he was, he was right on board with helping\nus do that, so that always kind of amazed me and my friends were amazed\nalso.  But it worked out well.  (clears throat)\n \nTROLAND: So as a military man, your dad was kind of a play by the rules\ntype guy except in some circumstances?\n \nVAN WINKLE: Yeah.  Exactly.  Exactly.  He was, uh, he had a lot of fun,\nyou know.  He had a great sense of humor, had a bunch of friends and,\num, played golf and tennis and water skied and did everything, wanted\nto do everything, so he was, he was quite a piece of ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=1080.0,1140.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"work. (clears\nthroat)\n \nTROLAND: Would you say your dad and you butted heads at times as is very\ncommon in families?\n \nVAN WINKLE: Definitely, um, because I was not, I was not the, um, uh,\nyou know, I always didn't do what he said and, uh, was not, definitely\nnot driven toward something to go into the Armed Forces or whatever,\nbut, um, he, uh, we--I would just, I was not, uh, doing what he wanted\nme to do as far as, uh, being a young man and growing up and so forth.\nHe had his rules and I had my ideas of the way I should do things,\nand they were not the same.  Let's just put it that way, so, uh, we did\nbutt heads a little bit.\n \nTROLAND: What, uh, do you think he wanted you to do as he saw you\ndeveloping into an adult?\n \nVAN WINKLE: Oh, probably be a little more responsible and pick up a book\nevery now and then and study, and, um, you know, I was not driven that\nway really.  Uh, he was.  Well, actually he was--he had a hard time in\nschool, too, but, uh, he was a little more driven than I ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=1140.0,1200.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"was. And, um,\nuh, I'm sure he probably, as you do when you have a child, you don't\nwant--you want them to improve their life, and you don't want to be,\nyou know, go around like yourself.  Maybe if you weren't as good as you\nthought you could be you'll want them to do better, so I think that's\nprobably what he did with me and I was not geared that way.  So, uh,\nit, uh--(clears throat)--I finally figured it out.  (clears throat)\n \nTROLAND: What's something your mother taught you?\n \nVAN WINKLE: Well, she was a classy lady and, um, you know, manners and,\num, uh, you know, a beautiful woman and also great friends, and, uh,\nwe, our--as it turns out, you know--their friends and their children,\nwe're now friends with their children.  So, um, she just, uh, you\nknow, as any, uh, a lot of mothers do just teach you manners and how\nto behave and how to grow up properly and, ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=1200.0,1260.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"um, how to conduct yourself\nproperly, and it was, you know, it was a good, good thing.  She, um,\nshe was right on.  (clears throat)\n \nTROLAND: And your dad, from your earliest memory throughout your life,\neven when you were young, was in the whiskey business I gather?\n \nVAN WINKLE: Yep.  Oh, yeah.  Forever.  He, like, I say, went, joined my\ngrandfather right out of the Army as he got home after the war so, and\nwent to work for him at the distillery, and, uh, I'm not sure if he ever\nworked there as a young man like I did in the summertimes but, um, he,\nhe went right at it as soon as, uh, as the war was over.  And I grabbed\nmy son, Preston, right out of college, too, so, uh--because I needed\nthe help--but, uh, um, as far as I know Dad was always in the business\nand that's, that's the only thing he ever did.  (clears throat)\n \nTROLAND: Let's talk a little bit about the development of the Rip Van\nWinkle brand. We've touched on this already. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=1260.0,1320.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obviously, it's an\noperation that your dad began a few years after the family, uh, sold\nthe Stitzel-Weller distillery.\n \nVAN WINKLE: Right.\n \nTROLAND: So tell me just a little bit about how that began and what the\nearly years were like.\n \nVAN WINKLE: Sure.  Well, the label was actually a pre-Prohibition label\nthat was, um, that he bought from the Farnsley family who were partners\nwith the distillery.  Alex Farnsley's family, um, owned the label, and,\num, Dad bought it in the fifties, um, and tried, never really produced\nthe label under that name, the Old Rip Van Winkle label, but had some\nmockups drawn.  So there were all of this kind of stuff and ideas in\nthe background that you always wanted to do up but just never--I think\nit would have happened if, um, if we had kept the distillery but, um,\nhe always had this idea of starting this Old Rip Van Winkle label.\nSo again, he owned the rights to this label which was, um, there\nare still bottles out there of the old original Old ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=1320.0,1380.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rip Van Winkle\nbottling which was owned by another family.  But, um, started it and,\num, uh, you know, it was, people didn't know what to think of it in\nthe, in the beginning.  Some people--a lot of people have heard of the\nlegend of Old Rip Van Winkle, and they're always kind of amazed even\ntoday that, you know, \"Is that your, is that really your name?\" You\nknow, selling--\"How does that work? You've got this, is he related to\nthis guy, this Old Rip?\" And, uh, so it's kind of a fun thing to, you\nknow, it's a great relationship we have to this legend of Old Rip Van\nWinkle by Washington Irving plus that's our name.  So, uh, uh, we had\na lot of fun with it, but, uh, it's a catchy name and that's why Dad\nreally liked it and, um, uh, and went with it and finally got this\nlabel designed.  We had a, a fellow who did some artwork with, for us\nat Stitzel-Weller, and, um, he worked with us after we sold Stitzel-\nWeller.  So he's the one that really designed a lot of our labels, um,\nthat are out there even ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=1380.0,1440.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"today. (clears throat)\n \nTROLAND: What is the origin of the family name Van Winkle?\n \nVAN WINKLE: It's Dutch.  Um, it means, um, Van or Van is--means \"from\"\nin Dutch, and winkle is, uh, \"shopkeeper\", and, um, I've even been to\nthe town of Winkle in Holland.  So, uh, you know, I was traveling to\nEurope back in the seventies, but, um, it's a Dutch name and ancestors\ncame over, landed in New Jersey back in the day.  And, um, uh, I'm\nnot sure how, where our--(clears throat)--my grandfather had several\nbrothers, and, um, there, obviously with our name being out there now\nwe hear from Van Winkles, uh, around the country; uh, they're in New\nJersey, Texas, Oklahoma, um, um, Georgia area.  So they're still out\nthere, but basically just a Dutch name, and, um, it's amazing when you,\nwhen you meet someone with a Dutch name they say, \"Oh, you're Dutch.\"\nSo it's kind of a, it's a proud heritage, I guess, that the Dutch have\nbecause there's not a whole lot, a whole lot of them ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=1440.0,1500.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"around.\n \nTROLAND: Do you have any idea when your family first came to the New\nWorld?\n \nVAN WINKLE: It's, it's, you know, it's 1600s and, um, way back because\nwe've got a family tree, and, um, you know, there are some strange names\non there--Jecabiah, and, uh, uh, Maciah--and all these really Dutch\nnames that, um, that were watered down at some point and there are not,\nnot any of them left.  All the, it's all pretty much American or, um,\nyou know, English-type names now, but, um, we do have a family tree\nwith some dates on there that, uh, they go way back.  (clears throat)\n \nTROLAND: Tell me a little bit about the nature of the, uh, Rip Van\nWinkle business.  When you first joined it your dad had already started\nthe business and had been in operation for a few years, so how well-\nknown was the brand and what was the state of operations when you first\nbegan working with your ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=1500.0,1560.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"dad?\n \nVAN WINKLE: You know, I'm not sure of the volume.  I'd have to check\nand see.  It was tiny, uh, a few hundred cases a year.  I mean, it\nwas just something to have fun with when it first started out.  We had\na wholesaler in Kentucky, um, maybe Tennessee, uh, had a good friend\nin Springfield, Illinois, and, um, in Chicago that sold it, so it\nwas basically his close friend distributors that had distributorships\nwould sell the product for him.  But I don't think it was more than\ntwo or three hundred cases, uh, when I joined him.  As I mentioned,\nmost of the business was sold, uh, the whiskey was sold through\ndecanters because bourbon at that time--and that's one of the reasons\nthe distillery was sold because the bourbon business was not very\ngood in the early seventies, uh, mid-seventies.  It was, you know,\nit was fighting white whiskey, it was fighting vodkas.  Um, vodka was\nthe main culprit as far as something else to, um, take people's minds\nfrom bourbon, so, um, it was a tough sell. So, ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=1560.0,1620.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"um, we were selling\na premium product, and premium bourbons, there weren't hardly any\naround back then.  Um, that's what they sold at Stitzel-Weller was\nold, uh, ten/twelve/fifteen-year-old whiskey even back in the fifties\nand sixties, but, you know, for some reason that wasn't, uh, bourbon\nhadn't really caught on at that point.  It was just, um, just something\nthat, uh, you know, another spirit out there.  So the decanter was\nreally a good way to, you're really selling the bottle instead of the\nwhiskey, uh, which has always kind of bugged me, and, um, we finally\nreversed that part of it.  But, um, uh, he had the Old Rip Van Winkle\nlabel and another label called Old Commonwealth obviously being here\nin Kentucky.  Those were our two decanter labels we sold and, uh, did\nvery well with them.  I mean, that was a very profitable business, and,\num, until that--Dad died in 1981--and at that point the decanters were\nkind of starting to slow down because the price was getting higher.\nWe had them made in Japan first, then Taiwan, then we went to ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=1620.0,1680.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mexico\nalways looking for a cheaper price.  Once the retail price of these\ndecanters got to be about $49.99, that was it.  The market just died,\nand, uh, you ask (??) Beam or, um, I see an Eagle Rare bottle up there,\nyou know, all these distilleries that had their own decanters, that's\npretty much where they, where they, when they died off is when they got\nto the retail price of about fifty bucks.  Mentally it was not, not a\ngood place to be for just buying a porcelain decanter.  Ours were, were\nvery nice.  They were all hand-carved and hand-painted, so they weren't\nthe spray-painted type, um, cheaper kind.  They sold for some good\nmoney, but, um, once that business died, that's when I started focusing\non selling what's inside the bottle because, um, it was a great product\nand I knew it was good.  And, um, we just, at that point, started to\nget people to try the whiskey, and, and, um, that's when the Old Rip\nVan Winkle label started to take off a little bit.\n \nTROLAND: What was it like to work with your dad in those years? ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=1680.0,1740.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Uh, it\nwas just a brief period of time you, you worked together and you and\nhe had butted heads a little bit as a, when you were a younger man,\nbut how did it go, uh, when you and he were now working together in the\nsame business?\n \nVAN WINKLE: It wasn't, you know, I was still his son and I was--he was\ntough to work for.  You know, he, uh, ran a tight ship, so, um, he\nwas very specific about how he--what he wanted me to do and how he\nwanted me to do it and if I didn't do something right I would hear\nabout it.  So it was, um, you know, it was a good, good, great learning\nexperience.  I pass that onto my son now who's trying to do the same\nthing, and, um, because I didn't have a clue as to how I should be\noperating, um, as far as selling whiskey and how to, you know, manage\nthe process from the barrel, bottling, selling and so forth.  You know,\nit was a great, uh--he would tell me how to do it and the correct way\nto do it, so it was, the learning curve was pretty steep there for a\nwhile when I first joined him but, um, uh, ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=1740.0,1800.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"it was, it was fun. We had\na good time out on the road, and, um, doing, doing--working together.\nWe were in the same office.  We had a two-room office.  Secretary,\nhad a couple of secretaries in the other room who would handle the\npaperwork and then Dad and I were in the same, same room, so he was\nlooking at me every day that I was around.  (clears throat)\n \nTROLAND: How did the brand develop between the time you joined the\norganization and the time your dad passed away? Was there a, a major\ngrowth period at that time or, or not?\n \nVAN WINKLE: Um, it was getting more popular as people found out about\nthe, the brand, and as we expanded, um, we were lucky enough to be\nable to buy the whiskey that we had made at Stitzel-Weller.  We were\nable enough to buy it by the barrel.  Uh, they would store it for us.\nUm, when Dad passed away in '81, uh, Stitzel-Weller, Old Fitzgerald\nwas doing our bottling for ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=1800.0,1860.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"us, and they kindly asked me to take a\nhike as far as, uh, they weren't doing our bottling for us anymore.\nSo I had to find another place to, um, bottle our whiskey, and there\nwas a little place in, uh, Lawrenceburg just down the road called\nHoffman Distillery.  And they, for a couple of years, bottled--they\nowned--it was no distillery there.  It was just the bottling house and\nthe warehouse--so they were doing, they were mainly in the decanters\nalso, Hoffman Decanters, and big business for them.  And they, uh,\nwere a very reasonable, reasonably priced place to do our bottling\nfor us, and then in 1983 when the decanter business was just about\nshot, they, they wanted to sell me the facility and I had to have\nsomeplace to buy it, I mean, to bottle the whiskey.  I had no money\nbut, um, went to the bank and, um, uh, put up some collateral which\nwas pretty scary and bought this barrel warehouse and ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=1860.0,1920.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"bottling facility\nin Lawrenceburg in, uh, 1983.  So that's where I did all the bottling,\nand, um, again did a lot of, still did a lot of decanters there.  The\ndecanter business was still hanging on, but, um, even bottled some\nfor the people that owned it previously; bottled some of their bottles\nand, um, again tried to focus on the label and the product and just,\num, would do some bourbon dinners here and there to get people to try\nthe product.  And we'd go out and do whiskey shows or whatever just to\nget the whiskey in people's mouths, just to get them to try it because\nit's always something, obviously, I believed in.  I was familiar with\nit from day one, it seemed like, and, um, I just wanted to really\npromote the selling of the whiskey.  And, uh, it gradually, as anything\ndoes, it, it starts to take hold.  Um, we just had a--we went up to a\nten-year-old product after Dad passed away.  Then I got hold of some\nolder whiskey and uh, uh, progressed (??) to a twelve-year-old, ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=1920.0,1980.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and\nagain, I did a fifteen-year-old a few years later and eventually a\ntwenty and then a twenty-three.  So I just kind of, this all progressed\nwith ideas I had and.  as whiskey became available and, um, back then\nthe--not having our own distillery, there was bulk whiskey available\non the market because the bourbon business still was not very good in\nthe late eighties and nineties, early nineties.  So I was fortunate\nenough to buy from a couple of different sources some pretty decent\nbourbon to put in these, in my labels, uh, under my bottles.  And so,\nuh, probably the breakthrough for us was, uh, my sales rep in Chicago\nentered our twenty-year-old Pappy Van Winkle into a, um, the beverage\ntasting institute, their beverage tasting panel, and it got a ninety-\nnine.  That was the highest rating that any whiskey, period, had ever\ngotten.  So then the phone starts ringing off the hook from wholesalers\nall over the country, you know, ratings are it. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=1980.0,2040.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"You know, ratings just\nlike wine or food or anything else, when people see ratings--\n \nTROLAND: What year was this?\n \nVAN WINKLE: Uh, I'm thinking '96/'95.  Yeah.  (clears throat) And, um,\nthat's when the brand started to get a little bit of attention, uh,\nwhen you get a nice rating like that.  So it's unfortunate that people\ndidn't see it for themselves and appreciate the quality of the product\nbefore that, but it sure does help.  So, um, that's when things kind of\nreally started to change for me.\n \nTROLAND: Now at one point your twenty-year-old was, uh, said to come\nfrom what was called the Old Boone Distillery?\n \nVAN WINKLE: Uh-huh.  That was the first whiskey in that bottling, right.\n \nTROLAND: Where, where was the Old Boone Distillery?\n \nVAN WINKLE: It was way out Dixie Highway in South Louisville, almost\nto Fort Knox, and, um, uh, a really pretty good--you know, there were\nhundreds of distilleries in Kentucky before Prohibition.  This was\none of them that wa-, continued to operate after Prohibition and, uh,\nmade a pretty decent whiskey, was in the decanter ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=2040.0,2100.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"business just like\neverybody else, but Dad had a, had a relationship, uh, with a fellow\nthere named Tom Pageant, uh, Bob Pageant, um, who went to Maker's Mark-\n-(clears throat)--after he worked for Old Boone.  But, um, we bought\nsome stocks of whiskey from them, and, um, actually they closed down\nin the late eighties, but they sold their, their bulk whiskey to Austin\nNichols, Wild Turkey.  So it's funny how these barrels travel around\nthe state to different distilleries from all these sales and purchases,\nbut, um, so the whiskey I bought to put in the original Pappy I bought\nfrom, um, uh, Wild Turkey there in Lawrenceburg.  So that was the\nfirst, um, first whiskey we had in a twenty-year-old.  (clears throat)\n \nTROLAND: After your dad died, uh, I guess the operation was just you and\na secretary?\n \nVAN WINKLE: Yep.\n \nTROLAND: A very small, uh--\n \nVAN WINKLE: It was about as small as you could get, um, and, uh, and\nagain ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=2100.0,2160.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"when I couldn't do the bottling at Stitzel-Weller anymore, I had\nto do my own bottling.  Um, that meant that I was two or three or four\ndays a week traveling to Lawrenceburg to do the bottling, and they had\nsome employees there, um, that would do the processing and the, uh, the\nlabeling and so forth; just some part-time, uh, help.  And, um, but I\nwas, again, was kind of doing the whole thing by myself.  Eventually,\na lot of them retired--the people that processed the whiskey--and,\nuh, when the barrels would come in on a truck, you know, they would\nbe there, but I'd have to hire my, uh, secretary down there, hire her\nsons to help me out.  (laughs) Or my secretaries in Louisville, I'd\nhire them to help me out down there, so it was kind of a one-man show.\nThen I'd come home at night and, uh, get the billing done and, uh,\nwith the help of the secretary, so it was, I was, uh, running myself\nragged there starting after 1983.  But, um, yeah--it was a pretty small\noperation, and we ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=2160.0,2220.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"weren't selling a lot of cases. It was, again, it\nwas a lot of decanters, but the whiskey business had not, the bourbon\nbusiness per se had not really taken off yet.\n \nTROLAND: Were you in some, to some extent optimistic that this\noperation, still quite small after a number of years, could grow and\nbecome a, a more major operation?\n \nVAN WINKLE: I, I don't know if I was optimistic or stubborn because\nI didn't want to close it down because I'd invested all my time and,\nand what little money I had left to keep this thing running, and, um,\nyou know, I just didn't, I would do anything to keep it going because\nobviously I had faith in the brand and I knew it would, would sell\nsomeday.  But just, um, just basically just kept it going, um, as well\nas I could, uh, for as long as I could and then, um--(clears throat)-\n-you know, then eventually started to get some notoriety and then, uh,\nthat really helped things ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=2220.0,2280.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"out.\n \nTROLAND: Tell me a little bit about rye whiskey.  In the nineties, your\nbrand offered for the first time--as far as I know--several bottlings\nof rye whiskey just as a product that had not been seen much on the\nU.S.  market for a long time.  What was the origin of your idea to sell\nrye whiskey?\n \nVAN WINKLE: Well, again, like everything else in my business I had\nhelp, um, just little inputs from friends.  Um, even this bottle that\nthe fifteen-year-old was in, um, wasn't my idea.  I wanted a different\nbottle, but, um, uh, a friend of mine who owned a liquor store up in\nCovington, uh, was using that bottle for his label and suggested it.\nIt's just a stock cognac bottle.  So I get help from, little bitty\npieces of help as you do, you know, running a business.\n \nTROLAND: Was that Gordon Hugh?\n \nVAN WINKLE: Yeah.  Gordon Hugh.  Right.  It was Gordon's--he was\ndoing his Hirsch label at that time, um, and, um, which we originally\nbottled, and, um, um, again I, I had a--I was selling some whiskey\nin Japan, quite a bit actually. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=2280.0,2340.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"That was a really good market. I\nwasn't getting a whole lot for it as usual, but, um, you know, it\nwas at least--kept the bottling line operational and kept some cash\nflow going.  Um, but I had a request from my Japanese customer, oddly\nenough, that wanted some old rye whiskey.  So I said, \"Okay.  I'll--I\ndon't know a damn thing about it, but I'll go out and give it a shot.\"\nSo I called a few distilleries and finally found some at the Medley\nDistillery.  Charles Medley had some old rye whiskey.  He had also\nshut his distillery down in '92, um, also, so he had stocks of bourbon\nwhiskey that he was selling and, uh, under his Wathen's label but he\nwasn't selling any of the rye.  So I tried it, and I was blown away by\nthe, by the quality of this whiskey because I had never tasted anything\nlike it.  (clears throat) Um, my wife, Cissy, has an incredible palate\nfor whiskey.  She likes single malt scotch mostly, but I gave her\nsome of this rye whiskey and she loved it.  Uh, and I let a couple of\nfriends try it, and they were blown away by it and these were ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=2340.0,2400.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"bourbon\npeople.  And, again, I didn't know anything about rye whiskey, so we\nmade a, the whiskey was twelve years old, thirteen years old, and, uh,\nI designed two different labels; an Old Rip Van Winkle twelve-year-old\nand a Van Winkle Family Reserve thirteen-year-old and sold them in\nJapan exclusively.  So I'm at the Bourbon Festival one year, and Gary\nRegan and Paul Pacult were sitting at a table having a drink or a beer\nor something.  And I walked by and I said, \"Hey, guys.  How are you\ndoing? Uh, look at this new label I've got.\" And they're from up East,\nI call it--New York, New Jersey, New England area--and, of course,\nbeing a rye, rye whiskey area, um, said, \"Well, what are you going to\ndo with this? You're going to sell it in the states aren't you?\" And\nI said, \"I've got no idea.  I don't, you know, is there any popularity\nof rye here? Does anybody know about it?\" They say, \"Oh, yeah.  There's\nall kinds of rye whiskey labels out there.\" And they're all four-years-\nold; Pikesville, you know, and Overholt and whatever.  There was--Beam\nalways had one, and Wild Turkey ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=2400.0,2460.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"did. So they said, \"Well, you've got\nto start producing this in the U.S.\" So I started selling it in the\nU.S.  at their, uh, again, the help, at their, uh, uh, suggestion, and,\num, and it took off and, um, you know, got all kinds of tasting awards.\nAnd I only had a limited amount of it is the problem, and now, today,\num, we're stuck with what I bought years ago and we're producing new\nwhiskey here at Buffalo Trace for it but, uh, it's going to be a while\nbefore it comes to market.  But, um, it was a phenomenal product, and,\nuh, it would be the best selling whiskey we had if we had a lot of it\nbecause it really was exceptional.\n \nTROLAND: Rye whiskey has become much more popular in the last decade or\nso--\n \nVAN WINKLE: Um-hm.\n \nTROLAND: --uh, than it was prior to that time although it's still, as I\nunderstand it, a very small fraction of the whiskey market.  Um, would\nit be fair to say you had played some role in bringing rye whiskey back\nto, uh, to the ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=2460.0,2520.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"market as a, a top shelf item?\n \nVAN WINKLE: I guess so because I had the first aged rye whiskey out\nthere.  As I mentioned, everything was four or five years old--no age\non the label--so I had the first, uh, old rye whiskey.  Um, Buffalo\nTrace put out Sazerac eighteen-year-old after mine came out, so they\nobviously had the same idea.  Um, I think they saw that rye was, you\nknow, something that could be sold.  They had stocks of it and it just\nhappened to be eighteen years old.  Um, you know, we do these things\nthat, um, you think we think long and hard about them for years and\nyears, but sometimes if you have a product that's already aged and\nready to go, well, let's create a label for it, and it just happened\nto take off.  So I guess having the first aged rye whiskey was, um,\nwas kind of really when this whole rye thing started, I think.  There\nwas a lot of them that popped up as, uh, because rye whiskey was\navailable sitting in the warehouses.  Um, they were maybe selling it\nto the Canadians to put in some, ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=2520.0,2580.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"um, Canadian blended whiskey and, um,\nor putting it in blended whiskey here in the states or whatever, but,\num, um, it really was quite a phenomenon to see the rye whiskey take\noff.  It was a lot of fun.  We had a lot of fun selling it--(coughs)-\n-because it makes incredible cocktails--obviously the Sazerac--but the\noriginal Manhattan was made with rye.  It was the original whiskey\nsold in this country by the Europeans--started making rye up in\nPennsylvania/Maryland, so it's, um, it's good to see it come full\ncircle back to, to the popularity of rye.\n \nTROLAND: Let's talk a little bit now about your, uh, affiliation with\nBuffalo Trace Distillery which you began sometime ago.  Um, tell me a\nlittle bit about how you got the idea to pursue that.  [Whistle blows.]\n \nTROLAND: How did you get the idea to pursue that particular initiative?\n \nVAN WINKLE: Um, I guess it was 2001 and I had been still in ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=2580.0,2640.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Lawrenceburg\noperating the bottling operation there, and, um, the whiskeys were\nstarting to take off a little bit.  Obviously the, I was selling some\nof the oldest premium whiskey out there, and, um, the ratings were\ngetting great; you know, getting very good ratings and a lot of press.\nAnd, uh, I think Mark Brown obviously noticed something about that,\nso he called me up one day and asked me if I wanted to do a little\njoint venture.  And I, you know, I said, \"Well, I'll think about it,\nbut I'm perfectly fine by myself.  I've been doing this thing by myself\nfor twenty-something years.\" And, um, I thought that would be, you\nknow, continue on like that, but then I'd go home and realize that,\nuh, well, let's see.  I'm not making a new whiskey.  I'm not putting\nany whiskey away.  Um, I'm buying some whiskey that Stitzel-Weller\nwas making for me and had a good arrangement with them, but they had\nshut down in 1992. Diageo had shut that ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=2640.0,2700.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"distillery down. They were\nstill warehousing whiskey there, but there was no new production.  So I\nneeded new production.  Um, Buffalo Trace bought the Weller label, our\nold label at Stitzel-Weller, back in 1999.  They bought that label, so\nthey were probably producing a wheated bourbon whiskey which is what\nour formula was.  And finally, Mark called me again and said, um, \"What\ndo you think?\" And I said, \"Well, let's talk.  This, this sounds pretty\ngood.\" And the more I thought about it, I'd love to get rid of that\nlittle bottling operation in Lawrenceburg that was wearing me out and,\num, love to not, uh, be on the road between Louisville and Lawrenceburg\nevery day, so, um, in 2002 we struck up a deal and, um, the rest is\nhistory as they say.\n \nSo it's been a great, great relationship.  Um, they do all the heavy\nlifting as far as the production, the warehousing, uh, the paperwork,\nthe invoicing, ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=2700.0,2760.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"bottling. I'm thankful. I was getting ready to get,\nhappy to get rid of that although on a nice spring day down there in\nthe country rolling some barrels and driving that old truck from the\nwarehouse to the bottling house it was, you know, I had a little creek\nright there.  It was--and my son has said the same thing.  Preston\nsays, \"You know, I miss that.  It was really nice.\" But not every day.\n(laughs) So, uh, but it was, um, you know, there was parts of it that\nwas great, but, um, getting up on the roof when it was raining and\nfixing the leak and stuff like that was, uh, got a little old so this\nwas a great relationship.  So it, I finally came to my senses, and, um,\nit's worked out very well.\n \nTROLAND: So you no longer have the facility at all in Lawrenceburg?\n \nVAN WINKLE: Right.  Sold that back in--well, it took a while to sell\nit, but, about a year or so--but, uh, I did sell it in 2003 I think,\nand, uh, the barrel warehouse has since been torn down.  And I think\nthey are selling the wood, um, actually on their website somewhere in\nNorth Carolina is the wood that actually aged Pappy Van ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=2760.0,2820.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Winkle bourbon.\n(laughs) You know, you can buy it for your floor or make a table out\nof it or whatever, but, um, they tore that building down.  But the\nold bottling house is still there.  I think there's a sign company in\nthere now, but it's still around.  And, uh, the girl who did my work\nfor me, Darlene Gillis, she was the secretary down there for thirty-\nsomething years because she worked for the people that owned the Hoffman\nDistillery, uh, the Wortheimer family--they were from Cincinnati--she\nworked for them for years, and, uh, she's still around.  So we're still\ngood friends.  We talk all the time, and, um, um, so we still have\na few ties with Lawrenceburg but, um, that's all gone as far as the\nfacility thankfully.\n \nTROLAND: Now you mentioned the term wheated bourbon.  Can you remind us\na little bit about what that term means compared to others?\n \nVAN WINKLE: Sure.  We're not sure of the origin of wheated bourbon\ncompletely because, uh, when Pappy joined W.L.  Weller, Stitzel\nDistillery was ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=2820.0,2880.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"making bourbon made with wheat; in other words, bourbon\nobviously has to have mostly corn as your main ingredient but your\nsecond grain can be either wheat or rye if you so choose to pick one of\nthem and then malted barley is your third grain.  Pappy, uh, we believe\nthe Stitzels were using wheat at that time instead of rye for at least\none of their formulas, and when Pappy, when they merged Stitzel-Weller\ntogether back before Prohibition, um, he only sold the wheated bourbon\nwhiskey and that was his favorite.  And when he started the production\nat the modern-day Stitzel-Weller plant in, in 1935, all the whiskeys\nwere the same distillation, but they're all wheated bourbon whiskey.\nSame, same formula, just different age and different proof, um,\nand again that's--you like wheated bourbon or bourbon made with rye,\nthey're both great.  It's just your own, uh, flavor preference, I guess\nyou'd call it, what you might like.  Pappy always enjoyed the wheated\nbourbon. It's what I grew up on. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=2880.0,2940.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"It's what my dad grew up on, so it's\nsomething that we're used to.  And I think what I've seen in our label\nthat people have really maybe tried bourbon made with rye then they\ntry an aged, wheated bourbon, and they see a huge difference and, uh,\nreally get attached to the wheated profile.  So I think that's why we've\ngotten to be so popular because it's really different than what's out\nthere, but, um, so again there are only five of them out there; um, Van\nWinkle, Rebel Yell, Old Fitzgerald, um, Weller and, uh, Maker's Mark.\n \nTROLAND: Tell us a little bit about the bourbon in that bottle that\nyou're sitting next to.\n \nVAN WINKLE: This is one that actually started out--it's a fifteen-\nyear-old, 107 proof--and, um, it started out as an Old Rip Van Winkle\npackage. Um, we have a ten-year-old 107 proof in a ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=2940.0,3000.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"squat bottle and we\nhad a fifteen-year-old 107 proof, and they were confusing on the shelf.\nIt was confusing, and people, you know, why--that one's twenty-two\ndollars and that one's thirty-five dollars.  What's the difference? Oh,\nthere's a different age.  Okay.  I just decided to change the product,\num--the packaging, and I don't have a whole lot of pictures of Pappy\nbut this one on the back is a picture of him at eighteen years old when\nhe started working for the Wellers.  So I said, \"I'd love to use that\npicture in a package.\" So I changed the package and, uh, to the Pappy\nVan Winkle which is the most famous label we have, so we had a--we have\na fifteen, a twenty and a twenty-three.  But this fifteen-year-old for\nsome reason, um, our formula--um, bourbon really changes as it matures\nobviously, and you get different flavor profiles as it gets older.\nUm, it's kind of like this.  You know, at twelve years old--at ten\nyears old, it's pretty good. At twelve years old, ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=3000.0,3060.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"it's really good.\nThirteen, fourteen, fifteen it kind of has a little flat--I mean,\nthirteen fourteen--a little flat, but when it gets to be fifteen years\nold, um, this, this whiskey has incredible vanilla and caramel in it\nand it's got little, some orange notes in there, um, that are just,\nit's just incredible whiskey.  It really is.  Um, a lot of people really\nenjoy this fifteen-year-old.  It just for some reason is a really nice\nage, and the 107 proof is something that our family has always used.\nUm, we had a--back with Stitzel-Weller--we had a seven-year-old 107\nproof, um, W.L.  Weller, and it was called \"barrel proof\" because it\nwas put in the barrel at that proof and, uh, very little water was\nadded.  As the whiskey went up in proof in the warehouse very little\nwater was added to bring it back down to 107 proof, so it was really\nsmoother.  The less water you add to these, some of these bourbons as\nyou age them when you--as you get ready to bottle them, the smoother\nit will be.  So if you add a lot of water to it, sometimes it gives\nit some ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=3060.0,3120.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"harshness. Um, so this 107 proof is what we call pretty much\na \"barrel proof\", and, um, and it really is--that would be our most\npopular label if we had enough of that whiskey.  Um, like the rye it\nwould be very popular.  We just have very little of it, but, um, it's\nmy favorite and it's my son's favorite; a lot of people's favorites.\nI think it's your favorite as far as, um, the wheated bourbon whiskeys\nbut, um, it's just right, really is, an amazing level of flavor to it.\n \nTROLAND: Now your line of whiskeys, many of them at least, are aged\nconsiderably longer than is commonly the case.  Um, if I understand\ncorrectly, over the years in the industry aging times of five/six years\nor so and maybe seven years have been considered, uh, uh, normal and,\nand perhaps in some people's view optimum.  Obviously, the whiskey\nchanges when it gets much older than that. How would ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=3120.0,3180.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"you compare young\nversus old bourbons?\n \nVAN WINKLE: They're really different.  Um, obviously I like older\nwhiskey, um, older bourbons.  Um, the wheated recipe really doesn't\ntake off until it gets older.  Um, the younger wheated, wheated\nbourbons are a little rawer.  Um, they just don't have the finesse\nof the older bourbons.  Um, you can produce a young rye whiskey and\nit might be a, a little more pleasing to some, but really until the\nwheated recipe bourbons age at least ten years, hits about ten years\nthen it starts to really take off.  Um, the idea about a wheated\nrecipe is that the wheat in the formula doesn't pick up as much of\nthe oak and as much of the char in the charred, new oak barrel, so\nit ages more gracefully as we like to describe it.  And that's what's\ngoing on, uh, with this whiskey when it's in the barrel. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=3180.0,3240.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Um, as it\ngets older it gets smoother.  When we do these tastings, we usually\nhave four different flights of different ages, and people realize as\nit gets older, as you get up to the twenty-year-old, uh, we call it\nbutter whiskey because it's so soft on the tongue and so smooth.  Uh,\nit does not pick up as much of the wood, um, as a, as a bourbon made\nwith rye.  If you aged a rye recipe and a wheated recipe together in\nthe same warehouse right next to each other and tried them in twenty\nyears, you'd see the difference.  It's very obvious.  The rye bourbon\ntends to pick up more of the wood, a little bit harsher, obviously\na lot more spicy.  Um, this one's softer on your tongue.  It's like\nrye bread versus wheat bread; same idea as far as the grains we use\nin the whiskey.  So it's the, um, uh, that's, that's what--because\nagain, bourbon made with rye is great, but, uh, our flavor profile, we\nprefer the wheated recipe and it seems to be what a lot of people have\nnoticed and, uh, really enjoy.  (clears throat) But, uh, as it does get\nolder it doesn't pick ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=3240.0,3300.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"up quite as much of that wood. Now, as with any\nbourbon, it's going to hit a point where it starts--we call it--going\nover the hill, where it gets too woody, and that's why you don't really\nsee too many bourbons over, uh, twenty-three/twenty-five/twenty-seven\nyears old I think is oldest one out there now.  I've tried a thirty-\nyear-old before, and it's--I don't care who made it--it's not going to\nmake it.  It's not going to make the trip very, very gracefully.\n \nTROLAND: Where would you want in a warehouse to store your barrels if\nyour plan is to age them for more than twenty years?\n \nVAN WINKLE: We, we get Ronnie here at Buffalo Trace to put ours in the\nfirst two or three floors, middle floor at the highest, um, because\nwe want it to age slower.  Uh, our entry proof is lower.  We put less\nalcohol in each barrel.  Uh, our proof is lower than the rye recipes\nthey use around here.  We've always done that.  We did that at Stitzel-\nWeller.  We--entry proof was really low, so you'd have less alcohol in\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=3300.0,3360.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"contact with the wood at a cooler temperature for those many years.\nSo, uh, we, we like to keep it on the cooler floors and let it just\nkind of, uh, not get too hot; not get too much wood.\n \nTROLAND: Now you've been in the bourbon industry for thirty years.  What\nwould you say are one or two of the biggest changes you've seen in the\nindustry over that time?\n \nVAN WINKLE: I guess the, uh, it's got to be the popularity of the\nproduct.  Um, I'm not sure exactly how it happened, but it seemed to-\n-for some reason single malt scotches in this country have always been\npopular, um, and got--they get a lot of money for it and bourbon has\nalways taken a back seat.  Um, these single malt enjoyers--I call them-\n-um, they, I think, started to notice the bourbon whiskeys, the aged\nbourbon whiskeys ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=3360.0,3420.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that are out there, and, uh, and at that point the\npopularity took off and then the distilleries met the demand to produce\nolder whiskeys.  You see more older whiskeys now than--older bourbons\nthan, you know, obviously before, and that seems to be what people, um,\nreally the flavor profile of the not only American public but all around\nthe world really enjoys the aged, uh, aged bourbons.  There's obviously\na lot more finesse, a lot more character than the younger ones.  So\nthey just, uh, they just kind of gradually-- word of mouth spread and,\nuh, became more popular, and now most distilleries are short of stock,\num, uh, which is too bad for the consumer; good for us, though, because\nit keeps the demand up.  And, um, um, it's, it's going well.\n \nTROLAND: What do you see as the future of bourbon if you could look\nahead, let's say, ten to twenty years, ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=3420.0,3480.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"how would you, uh, imagine the\nfuture to be or how would you like it to be?\n \nVAN WINKLE: I think that as far as our product that we, we sell--the\ndemand is so high and there's so many markets we haven't hit yet.  Um,\nyou know, we had to take our whiskey out of Japan because we didn't\nhave the supply.  We sell a little bit in Australia, and that's a\nhuge export market.  So the export market, once we satisfy the U.S.\nmarket, uh, which we'll never do, um, you know, there's always the\nworld market; uh, the demand for bourbon is getting to be--you know,\nwe get requests all over the world for, for our product.  We can't, you\nknow, we can't do anything about it.  We just tell them, uh, we can't,\ndon't have the supply right now, so it can only get better.  Um, as we\nproduce more, we'll have more options to produce special batches, um,\ndifferent bottlings at different proofs and so forth.  We don't have\nthe supply to do that now, but it would be fun to get into that down\nthe ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=3480.0,3540.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"road. Um, I probably won't be around to see too much of it, but,\num, you know, hopefully my children will.  (clears throat) But it's,\nuh, it's got a great future as far as bourbon.  I think it's, it's nice\nthat, um--uh, my father and grandfather were doing this back in the\nfifties and sixties--so it's nice to see what's going on now.  They had\nit right back then selling aged, premium bourbon whiskey, and, um, so\nit's, it's finally catching on.\n \nTROLAND: Your--(clears throat)--okay.  All right.  We're pretty close\nto--\n \n \n[Pause in recording.]\n \n \nTROLAND: Let me ask you a little bit about the ancestral family\ndistillery, Stitzel-Weller, just going back to that topic briefly.\nAmong whiskey enthusiasts these days, Stitzel-Weller is, uh, has\niconic status and certainly they produced very fine whiskey, and yet\ntoday, obviously, distilleries such as Buffalo ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=3540.0,3600.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Trace, uh, using even\nmore modern technology than was available in those days produce very\ngood whiskey.  Is there something about Stitzel-Weller, is there\nsomething about that place or that technique or the still or the\nfacilities there that was truly unique in your view and produced a\nwhiskey unlike any that will be produced in the future?\n \nVAN WINKLE: Yes, um, and it's like that for any distillery.  I mean,\nall of the above as far as the equipment, the water, the yeast, the\nmilling methods, the distillation proof, the, you know--they used a\nroller mill--and not to say that it was better or worse than what,\nwhat they're doing now, but--(clears throat)--we used a roller mill\nto, to mill the grain, uh, which ba-, you know, basically cracked the\ngrain instead of, um, pulveri-, pulverizing it.  Um, the well water\nthat they used back then, um, which is not available today because it's\nprobably polluted, ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=3600.0,3660.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"um, the particular still they used, the column still\nand the doubler that they used, you know, different equipment makes\ndifferent flavors of whiskey; as you may know a single malt scotch, the\nshape of the still totally controls the way the flavor of the whiskey\nis as does a, um, a doubler which is, um, the final distillation in\na two-distillation method of making bourbon.  Um, the yeast that was\nused back then, um, we, you know, my grandfather thought those old\ncyprus fermenters had something to do with the flavor of whiskey.  I\ndon't think so because we eventually put in stainless steel after they\nstarted to deteriorate, but, um, all those variables came together just\nright for that particular whiskey.  So it will never be created and\ncannot be created anywhere else.  Um, so it's, it's nice to try and\nget as close as possible and that's what we're doing, and we are.  It's\nvery good whiskey, but, um, it was just, ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=3660.0,3720.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"you know, all the stars were\nlined up just right for that, that place as far as I was concerned, and\nthat's, there's still that whiskey is out there.  Um, people notify me.\nYou see it on eBay or whatever, but, uh, it's around and you can taste\nthe difference for yourself.\n \nTROLAND: Apart from whiskey which is obviously a major interest in your\nlife, what's another interest that you have?\n \nVAN WINKLE: Um, just enjoy--I used to go hunting as I say with my dad\nand grandfather; um, dove hunting, duck hunting, quail hunting.  Um,\nwe have a, a place on a lake which is nice for boating and water skiing\nand snow skiing.  My, I had a couple of children live in Sun Valley for\na while.  One of them's still there--a daughter's still there--so we\ngo skiing.  So just basically outdoor stuff.  Golf, I'm terrible at it,\nbut I sure do like it.  Um, and, uh, you know, and just, um, hiking,\ndid some hiking for a while, uh, mountain climbing and so forth, so\njust ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=3720.0,3780.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"outdoor things. I really enjoy it.\n \nTROLAND: I'm sure you've been asked this question countless times, but\nif you washed up on a desert island with just one case of whiskey what\nwould that case contain?\n \nVAN WINKLE: (laughs) Hm.  Probably some very extra old fifteen-year-old\n90 proof Old Fitzgerald.  Best stuff on the planet.  Um, we did some\nbottling of some old Stitzel-Weller barrels when I had the Lawrenceburg\nplace, and I've still got some nineteen- and twenty-year-old that's\nreally good, too, of that old whiskey.  But, um, I'd say that fifteen-\nyear-old would probably be what I'd like to, like to go out on.  (laughs)\n \nTROLAND: Now I was recently told that Elmer T. Lee enjoys often his\nbourbon with Sprite, and so I ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=3780.0,3840.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ask you the same question. Uh, how do\nyou enjoy your bourbon?\n \nVAN WINKLE: (laughs) It's not with Sprite.  Um, normally just on some\nice, good ice.  I've become an ice snob now because, uh, there are\npeople who say, \"I like really cold ice.\" And they say, \"What are you\ntalking about 'cold ice'?\" Ice is cold.  Well, there's ice, um, and\nthere's cold ice.  You know, the more air in there it's going to melt\nfaster is what I'm talking about.  So, um, just probably a little\ntwelve- or fifteen-year-old normally on a few ice cubes and, uh, just\nlet that ice gradually melt and enjoy it that way.  Um, nothing better\nthan a good old fashioned, too, if you don't mind doing a little work,\nbut, um, normally it's going to be on some ice because that's what I'm\nused to.  And my dad used to put a twist of lemon around the rim, too.\nHe'd occasionally do that just to jazz it up.  Um, some people think\nthat, think that's blasphemy, but, uh, you know, whatever you grow up\non, that's what you enjoy.\n \nTROLAND: I've heard it said that there's only one way to ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=3840.0,3900.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"enjoy bourbon\nand that's exactly the way you like it.\n \nVAN WINKLE: Exactly.  Exactly.  (laughs) I agree.  I agree.  I started\nout drinking it with Coca Cola just like everybody else, so, um--\n(clears throat)--it's, um, you gradually learn to, uh, enjoy just the\nproduct itself.  But, uh, exactly; just enjoy it any way you want to.\nThat's the best way.\n \nTROLAND: Is there anything else that you'd like to say that I haven't\nasked you?\n \nVAN WINKLE: I think you've covered about everything.  That's, uh, I\ncouldn't think of another thing that, uh, I could expound upon to make\nthis more interesting or more informative.\n \nUNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a question.  Can I interrupt?\n \nTROLAND: Please do.\n \nUNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Could you explain a little bit more about the\nbusiness relationship between Buffalo Trace and your company?\n \nVAN WINKLE: Um-hm.  Yeah.  Um, our relationship with Buffalo Trace as of\n2002, it's a joint venture, and, um, without getting too specific ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=3900.0,3960.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"they,\nwe share a percentage of our Van Winkle label.  Um, as I mentioned,\nthey do all the heavy lifting as far as the production.  Uh, they store\nall the whiskey.  They age all the whiskey, um, rye and bourbons and,\num, do all the billing, and, um, once a year if there's any money to\nbe made we just, we split it up.  Um, I still have ownership of the\nlabel as far as, um, major stockholder in the company, but it's a, it's\na great relationship.  And, um, they, you know, it's a, it's a nice\nfeather in their cap to have our brand, and it's a feather in my cap\nto be associated with this distillery just because of the, the quality\nof the people and the quality of the brands here.  I mean, obviously\nthey are the--in the business--they are the ones that, um, are doing\nthe best job as far as getting the brands out there, innovative brands,\nand, um, producing a quality product--that's obvious with the awards\nthey've won and so forth. But, um, our deal is pretty simple. It's  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=3960.0,4020.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\njust basically, um, produce as good a whiskey, as good a bourbon as we\ncan and, uh, split the prof-, uh, profits up at the end of the day.\n \nTROLAND: Now--(clears throat)--Buffalo Trace normally, as I understand\nit, have several different mash bills--\n \nVAN WINKLE: Uh-huh.\n \nTROLAND: --that they use for their various products.  Do they undertake\na special distillation for you and a special mash bill or how do they\ntreat the products to be bottled under your label?\n \nVAN WINKLE: We are basically still using the Weller recipe.  Um, our\nbarrels, again, are stored in a different area than the Weller, so\nyou're going to have a little different product at the end of the day.\nAnd our relationship also with Buffalo Trace is we, Preston and I, get\nthe pick of the, of the best of the barrels.  We have first pick of the\nwheated whiskeys, so obviously we taste every barrel before we bottle\nit. So we'll, we'll pick our group of barrels that ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=4020.0,4080.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"we want. If there\nare any dogs in that bunch of whiskey barrels, we'll just throw those\nout, and, um, they may use them in another product or a Weller product\nor, you know, whatever they so cho-, choose to do.  But, um, we get the\nfirst pick of all that production.  But again, basically it's just the,\num, uh, the barrel aging is different.  Um, we've experimented with\nsome different entry proofs and distillation proofs also, so that's,\nthat's going to be some, that's going to be fun to see what that's\nlike someday.  So we're always, you know, this is the experimental\ndistillery, so we're always tinkering around to find the, to try and\nimprove it.  But that's, it's basically the Weller recipe.\n \nUNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have another question.  You mentioned in, you\nmentioned in the mid-eighties you were selling a couple of hundred\ncases a year.  So where are you now?\n \nVAN WINKLE: Oh, that's classified.\n \nUNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know.\n \nVAN WINKLE: (laughs) ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=4080.0,4140.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"No. We're probably, uh, you know, we're at about\nfive or six thousand cases which doesn't go very far at all.  Um,\nI guess I should explain how our allocation works, but we, every\nyear--there's a lady here at Buffalo Trace named Christy Hill who's a\ngenius, um, and she has this barrel model.  And, um, our business plan\nis twenty-three years long so take that in mind when you start to do a\nbusiness, um, because our whiskey is anywhere from ten to twenty-three\nyears.  So, um, she knows how many barrels we can bottle, say, next\nyear.  So we'll, once we get that bottled, let's say we have three\nhundred cases of ten-year to sell, we have to chop that up into--say\nwe have thirty distributers--we'll chop that up and say, Okay, this\ndistributor in Kentucky gets so many cases.  This one in New Jersey\ngets so many cases.  And we do that twice a year.  The major part comes\nout in the fall, and a smaller allocation goes out in the spring just\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=4140.0,4200.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"released. So the distributors immediately call us up and say, \"Is\nthis all we got?\" Um, and we say, \"Yes, that's all you get.  Sorry,\nbut, um, we have to\"--that's, that's the hard part really is deciding\nwho gets what because I kind of feel guilty because I don't, you know,\nI want to send more to this good customer but that's all I have, and\nI only have so much to go around.  And that's the frustrating part of\nit with, with just, uh, six thousand cases to go around.  Now we're\nproducing more whiskey, but it'll be ten to twenty-three years before\nit comes to market.  So, um, I won't be around to see it, I guess, but,\num, hopefully we'll be up around--we may produce fifteen thousand cases\nsome year--but we'll never be that--we'll never be, uh, big.  We, uh,\nmy grandfather always said, \"Produce a really premium product and keep\nit in seemingly short supply,\" which is good for your profit line and\ngood for your demand.  Uh, we're not having to keep it in short supply.\nIt is in short supply, but we never want ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=4200.0,4260.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/transcript/11/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to have this product be\navailable all over.  That's where a lot of brands have stepped on their\nfoot doing that.  It's, um, uh, it's, it's, you might--the accountant\nmight love it, but, uh, the quality and the prestige of your product is\ngoing to go downhill if you do that, if you meet the demand.  So keep\nthat in mind if you ever get into business and want to sell something.\n(laughs)\n \n \n[End of interview.]\n \n \n ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=4260.0,4320.0"}]},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/index/11","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["2010oh059_bik016_vanwinkle_ohm.xml [Index]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/index/11/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Childhood and family","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Title"]}}],"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=0.0,486.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/index/11/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Julian P. Van Winkle III is introduced. He gives a brief personal background and talks about how he worked in a clothing store for several years before eventually joining the family whiskey business. He describes his grandfather, \"Pappy\" Van Winkle, and talks about his experiences as a child visiting the distillery. He talks about his father's personality and his background in the military during World War II.","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Synopsis"]}}],"target":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11#t=0.0,486.0"},{"id":"https://nunncenter.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1/collection_resources/11/file/11/index/11/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"My name is Tom Troland and today we are interviewing Julian P. 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